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[解码器] 怪哉,竟然找不到对1394版MINIDAC的评价!!

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发表于 2007-11-10 20:12:08 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式

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因为种种原因,偶一直坚持走PC-H道路

发现火线版MINIDAC  不错,  方便,省很多麻烦


而且,偶对这个版本的解码声音充满了期待

但是遗憾的是,找了半天,也找不到相关的评测


更奇怪的是,一向对MINIDAC有好感的小白版主  竟然,竟然


也迟迟没有动作,一副讳莫如深的样子    怪哉,怪哉!!













USB接口谋杀音质?

  首先根据相关测试,USB总线在传输数据时会添加额外的jitter,如下的眼图:



  高传输率所引起的jitter成为了更大的障碍。从传输端到接受端,可以看到整个眼图变得模糊,并且“眼睛”开始闭合。

  根据IBM Research的Jim Wright的研究结果,USB总线引入的jitter,至少是其他总线——串行、并行和PCI的两倍。(But the jitter in USB interfaces was also much higher than the older interfaces--about twice as high),由此可见USB总线对于音频实在是个糟糕的选择,或者是成本的妥协。(该文登载在鼎鼎大名的专业杂志MIX上,Insider Audio专栏,2001年1月)。

  同期,RME的工程师也指出USB是音频杀手,并且写了“Unrecognized diSturbing Bus——USB kills audio”一文告诫用户谨慎购买USB接口产品。

  同时,半导体厂家所做的测试也向反对USB音频的方向发展。在和IEEE 1394对比测试中,可以看出USB的弱点。测试只测量传输端到接收端,并未通过AD/DA,从而避免了受到不同AD/DA添加的jitter影响。
这是基准测试图,,图中绿色线代表jitter:



  这是专业厂商MOTU的顶级火线声卡,虽然jitter也在100dB左右,但是出现了锯齿波,很明显这是由于设计失误所造成的。



  这是USB声卡的jitter,虽然也很平,但是只到60dB左右,实在是糟糕。如下图(绿线):



  在实时音频流测试中,USB表现更加糟糕。测试采用1小时不间断回放FFT,如下图:



  USB声卡出现了随机的误码( Random bit errors),而1394则完全没有。由此可见USB和1394差距仍然很大。

  同时在AES上,也存在相关的讨论:

  Sample Clock Jitter and Real-time Audio Over the IEEE1394 High Performance Serial Bus
Preprint Number:   4920   Convention:   106 (April 1999)
该文描述了1394引入的jitter问题,并且说明了1394为何强于其他外置总线,比如USB。
IEEE 1394 and Sampling Jitter
Paper Number:   MA-08   Conference:   AES UK Conference: Moving Audio - Pro-Audio Networking and Transfer (April 2000)

  研究在1394与SRC的相关问题,对于USB也有参考价值。

  综合来看,USB对于音质实在是一个糟糕的方案。对于开发者和最终用户来说,多花一些钱转移的火线上,似乎是更好的选择。

  我的个人意见:低端上尽管用USB,除非你追求完美和Hi-end。
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发表于 2007-11-10 21:40:21 | 显示全部楼层
没有什么"讳莫如深",MINI-DAC的1394版是新出的玩意,当然试听报告就少. DAC1USB版也是新东西,你找找看,同样评论不多.

不过你动用搜索引擎找一下,还是可以找到一些评论的. 比如这里: http://www.xy9000.com/news_detail.jsp?id=433

这里还有一篇国外的比较MINI-DAC和DAC1的文章. 是荷兰HI-FI网站的评论. 作者在详细介绍了DAC1和MINI-DAC两机的特点后,认为DAC1输给了MINI-DAC. 理由部分我下划了线,你仔细读一下.

全文:

Benchmark DAC-1

The concept for this article is about a half year old. If only the M-Audio SuperDAC would have still been in production, I would have connected it to my computer and written an article about Hifi and Computers months ago. But it’s not. In my search for an alternative for the SuperDAC, the “tuning-gurus” of Sound Evolution, Hilversum, The Netherlands, pointed out the Benchmark DAC-1, which even though more expensive, would be a reasonable alternative. Rene van Es’ review of last September www.hifi.nl , did not discourage me enough to not want to test this device.

The DAC-1 has good connectivity: two headphone jacks, optical, coaxial and AES/EBU input and RCA and XLR analog out (adjustable as an option). Of all tested similar devices it is the most rugged DAC: a heavy steel casing. Which seems to be redundant, but needs to be mentioned anyway: the DAC-1 has a built in transformer. The M-Audio Flying Cow and the Apogee Mini-DAC don’t. With those two, the letters OEM are printed on external transformers, which does not create a huge sense of reliability. However, we did not experience any problems with either.

The Benchmark does internal upsampling to 192 kHz, which is also the highest input sample rate. Hence the bandwidth of the device is approximately 52 kHz in the analog world. As mentioned before, with the Behringer UltraMatch SRC 2496 inserted in upsampling mode to 96K, I like this DAC better. The differences are not huge, but at this level, every little extra counts. On top of that, Behringer is only charging 270 Euros for the Ultramatch, and we are not even considering its “ultra-matching” qualities.

Sound wise the Benchmark is not disappointing. I would describe it as extremely detailed, airy and focused. Bass is punchy and balanced. Because of its accuracy the DAC-1 is an ideal tool for the professional, to do for example some discerning listening of different takes to pick the final version. Fed by the computer it merciless displayed the artifacts of data-reduction for MP3 files (encoded by a “third party”).

A little side note on compression. There are different opinions on how audible data-reduction is. I noticed myself that iTunes encoded material sounds a little artificial, once in while. But given the less-than-perfect fidelity of my “budget” setup and the fact that doing blind tests on your own is a little complex, I don’t want to give any final judgments. I am considering the possibility of a listening test, with a top setup and a larger group of people. For now I recommend the lossless WAV, AIFF and Apple Lossless iTunes formats. Connoisseurs would not want to deal with anything less anyway.

I tried some critical material. The band Interpol, whose Turn on The Bright Lights album sounds like mud with most DACs, because of its dirty guitar sound, sound unbelievably differentiated on the DAC-1. Guitars sound like guitars and even with Stella Was a Diver and She Was Always Down, where vocals are drowned in guitars, the voice of singer Paul Banks keeps its power of expression. Not bad.

Next I double clicked on Moussorgski’s Pictures at an Exhibition with Hans Oudenaarden on grand piano. The huge dynamics of a concert piano pass as best as one can imagine through my humble setup. Wonderful to hear the strings decay after Oudenaarden’s heavy beats. It makes it apparent the recording was done in a large hall: Rotterdam’s “De Doelen” indeed (which, I must admit, I know from the cd booklet). Listening to the DAC-1, I got the impression I was listening to “the facts”, clear and unblemished.

The DAC-1 is maybe a little too unblemished. One could say the Benchmark is leaning towards “cold”. That is the only minor of the Benchmark, then again a major for the hifi enthusiast: it is just not “musical” enough. An excellent DAC not only needs to have the characteristics like the Benchmark, but also has to sound a bit more “engaging”. Music did not really come alive.

I am not dissatisfied with the DAC-1. It is well built, rich in features and sounding focused. But, in my opinion, it loses against the competition, the Apogee Mini-DAC. The Benchmark does emphasize you are listening to “digital” music; and it is exactly this digital harshness that is missing with the Apogee. After the recent price reductions of Apogee there is hardly any price advantage to the Benchmark (only 50 Euro). For readers in the Hifi realms I definitely recommend the Apogee. For professionals, it is a matter of taste.

(翻译: 在我个人看来,DAC1输给了MINI-DAC这个对手. DAC1强调了你是在听数码音乐这个事实,而MINI-DAC的声音里则没有数码味. 对HI-FI领域内的人来说,我肯定推荐MINI-DAC,而对专业人士来说,这是个个人口味的问题.)


Apogee Mini-DAC

To the returning reader of this site, Apogee’s Mini-DAC is not a stranger. Rene van Es’ favorite little one is being put on the test bench once again. For two reasons: to start, the Mini-DAC is easy to hook up through USB to the computer. Both Mac OS X and Windows XP did recognize this device instantly; no additional drivers were required to install. It did not even require a restart. However you do not have the electrical isolation, USB is not optical. There is also a limitation of 24/48 with USB. Which is not a major problem, since most audio on your drive will be 16/44.1. More important is the 215 Euro price for this USB option. A high quality optical cable and if required a soundcard with optical, will be much less.

One of the important reasons to pull in the Apogee was, because it seemed, after reading Van Es’ review, the best DAC in the price range below “grand-masters” like Burmester and Mark Levinson. Needless to say there is a giant gap in price. Even better news is that the price has come down since Van Es’ review: 1115 Euro without USB (was 1285) and 1330 with USB (was 1625).

It is almost embarrassing to tell how I had my first listening experience with the Mini-DAC, but since it is kind of informing, I am going to do it anyway. The Mini-DAC was the first device to arrive, but it was, awaiting the big shipment of Oehlbach, not connectable. There is analog output on XLR and line on mini-jack. On the front there is 6.3 mm headphone jack. I loaned my Senheisser 580 and my mini-jack to RCA conversion cable to a friend, 200 kilometers from here and my Kenwood 7090R does not have XLRs, so I had only one option: the ear-buds of my iPod.

That worked fine with the adjustable line output on the back of the unit. To be more accurate, it worked very well. Wonderful. I would not say the sound was perfect, the headphones do not allow for such a thing. But with these humble ear-buds I did hear a lot of details that escaped my attention before. I have been listening for more than an hour with my head in close proximity of the Apogee (since the cord of the iPod phone is really short), while changing one cd after another. It made me run to a friendly electronics store in my current city for a XLR to RCA cable. They had them…

At that point the teamwork of Philips/Mac-Apogee-Kenwood-B&W revealed a quality almost unheard. But before I get into it, a brief technical description of the Mini-DAC: Adjustable outputs (XLR, line and headphone), S/PDIF, AES/EBU and ADAT in, through 2x AES/EBU, Toslink and coaxial. The Mini-DAC accepts signals up to 192 kHz. With the USB option, it will not only accept signal from the computer, it will also pass other digital signals from external gear, for instance MD and pass it through USB to the computer.

One of the reasons the Mini-DAC sound so good is, according to Apogee’s manual:

The clock circuitry of a typical D-to-A converter must be designed as a compromise between the ability to attenuate input signal jitter and the ability to accept any bitstream, regardless of its stability. The more the clock is allowed to track timing variations of the input, the more jitter remains in the clock at the conversion stage, with the degradation of conversion quality as a result. The Mini-DAC’s Dual Stage Clock overcomes this compromise by employing one clock stage to accept the bitstream and store bits in a buffer, and a second stage to clock bits out of the buffer to the conversion stage. The first stage is optimized to track timing variations of the input, while the second stage is optimized to attenuate jitter and ensure that conversion takes place with the lowest jitter clock possible.

There is no doubt that the bitstream needs to be free of jitter when converted to analog, but that is not a guarantee for top quality. The Mini-DAC gives the impression they have been thinking just as much about the rest of the design as on the digital input. To illustrate, the powersupply of the Mini-DAC is a super high speed switcher. The external supply, a table top, is nothing but a DC source. Inside the Mini-DAC this DC is being converted to ultra-high frequency AC (in the range of 750kHz) a multiple of the sample rate. Next, the AC is being reconverted to normal DC. The advantage of this system is the high tolerance for any type of external powersupply (the Mini-DAC accepts DC from 6 to 14 Volt, with a minimum of 1.25 Amps). The noise of this procedure is way beyond the audible range and the response time of the circuitry is fast enough for transient up into the inaudible. Apogee claims that there is an overcapacity locally and within the power supply, resulting in a total elimination of garbage, noise, DC within the power net. This is an expensive solution, but it is very effective.

But most of all the Mini-DAC shows there has been done some extensive listening during development. For instance while I am writing this, I see next to my text program a window that displays the DVD Live at Madison Square Garden van Pearl Jam. I have to say it is very distractive. I knew it was an amazing recording (even though the quality of the picture of the PAL version is to cry for), but I do hear more details, more separation, a better image and improved dimensions. Suddenly I am not that convinced anymore to make the switch to surround in the near future. (Wishing that all DVDs had a decent stereo track...) When I get really tired of the distraction (I have to write, remember) I launch iTunes. An album like Beach Boys’ 'Holland', recorded in Baambrugge (Netherlands, 1973 and recently released on cd), brings out the quality of the Mini-DAC. The two mini-symphonies on this record, A 'California Saga' and 'Trader' became apexes of musical creativity, more than I ever experienced, just with the Mini-DAC. It suddenly becomes apparent what an enormous energy the Beach Boys put in their arrangements.

Next to the standard rock band instruments, the beach dudes play flute, piano, harmonica and instruments I do not really know the name of. The boys’ close harmony vocals are just perfect on this record and are really convincing with the Mini-DAC. The Beach Boys are seated on a wide virtual stage and the depth remains extremely stabile.

With Carl Wilson’s 'Trader', his voice is so real and saturated with emotion. The very subtle percussion of this song, which is really demanding of the timing of the DAC, is convincing and extremely rhythmic. The Bottom line is, an excellent performance.

I can go on forever. But instead of telling how every one of my CDs or MP3s sounds through the Mini-DAC, I refrain to saying this. The Apogee is equally convincing with, rock, pop, jazz and classical. It has fantastic features for everyone: it convinces in timing, emotional contents, unique and authentic vocals; a sweet, never intrusive high with just enough clarity, an ever contained and dimensional soundstage, which transposes far beyond the loudspeakers. Low response and dynamics are never compromised with the Apogee: when required, the Mini-DAC displays a dynamic range I did not consider my equipment being able to reproduce. There was no music in my collection that did not give me a whole new experience with the Mini-DAC. I could not find any disadvantages…

(翻译: MINI-DAC播放摇滚,流行,爵士乐,古典音乐同样令人信服. 对每个人来说它都有美妙的特点: 节奏感,感情内涵,独特而权威的人声,甜美而不刺耳的高频,清晰度正好足够,富有三维立体感的稳定音场能超出喇叭的尺寸. 低频响应和动态绝不受妥协. 当需要时,MINI-DAC能展现出我觉得我的器材无法重播出来的动态范围.)

What a delight of a machine! No other piece of Hi-fi gear has ever brought me such listening pleasure as the Mini-DAC and never was I so reluctant to return a device that I reviewed. I have to. I don’t have the money right now. But to those who do, it must be obvious what I recommend.

[ 本帖最后由 小白 于 2007-11-10 21:50 编辑 ]
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发表于 2007-11-11 19:55:31 | 显示全部楼层
喜欢就入 不要被所谓的评测 误导
自己喜欢是最重要的
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发表于 2007-11-12 09:48:03 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 wqllz 于 2007-11-11 19:55 发表
喜欢就入 不要被所谓的评测 误导
自己喜欢是最重要的



评测好坏相差很大. 好的评测在给出作者个人结论时,一定会有他的理由. 你看他的理由是否令你信服就是了.
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 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-12 10:32:49 | 显示全部楼层
不过,白版,我觉得火线版MINIDAC的设计  是有很大缺陷的

就是那个火线子卡的供电问题,为什么一定要通过火线本身来供电


这个就给笔记本用户带来许多的麻烦,因为笔记本上的火线口,绝大多数都是四针的


即便使用了集线器,相信对音质也会有影响,而且增加了成本,带来不方便


MINIDAC号称是便携的,结果大家一定要用台式机使用,这个和便携是矛盾的


而且,火线卡直接从外接电源取电不是什么麻烦的设计,我的声卡就能做到


不明白Apogee  怎么连这个都没有注意到????
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发表于 2007-11-12 12:08:29 | 显示全部楼层
呵呵,给APOGEE提建议吧. 他肯定有他的考虑.

MINIDAC只是小巧,倒没有号称便携过,否则它就设计成电池供电了.

到了这个价位,真要喜欢便携,可以考虑意大利RudiStor 01SE. 是带解码器的耳机放大器,可用电池操作.
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发表于 2007-11-12 12:14:37 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 缥姚校尉 于 2007-11-12 10:32 发表
不过,白版,我觉得火线版MINIDAC的设计  是有很大缺陷的

就是那个火线子卡的供电问题,为什么一定要通过火线本身来供电


这个就给笔记本用户带来许多的麻烦,因为笔记本上的火线口,绝大多数都是四针的 ...

MINIDAC的火线子卡的供电问题,我想是因为MINIDAC本来只有USB子卡,而USB子卡原来就是从USB线上取电的, 所以整个的电源设计就没有考屡到为子卡供电, 当后来要设计火线卡子当然就只能设计成火线供电了, 要不然要改原来的MINIDAC设计, 这是我的猜想。
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 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-12 12:26:51 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 yyhapril 于 2007-11-12 12:14 发表

MINIDAC的火线子卡的供电问题,我想是因为MINIDAC本来只有USB子卡,而USB子卡原来就是从USB线上取电的, 所以整个的电源设计就没有考屡到为子卡供电, 当后来要设计火线卡子当然就只能设计成火线供电了, 要不 ...



更改一下供电相信不是什么困难的事情


不晓得,为什么没有这么做???
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 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-12 12:29:57 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 小白 于 2007-11-12 12:08 发表
呵呵,给APOGEE提建议吧. 他肯定有他的考虑.

MINIDAC只是小巧,倒没有号称便携过,否则它就设计成电池供电了.

到了这个价位,真要喜欢便携,可以考虑意大利RudiStor 01SE. 是带解码器的耳机放大器,可用电池操作.



小便携素质有限的


MINIDAC这样的问题,绝对是个败笔


能买的起MINIDAC的人,有几个是用台式机的


呵呵!!  这样普通版倒是更合适一些了
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发表于 2007-11-12 15:38:52 | 显示全部楼层
普通版 ... 如连接电脑使用,前面要有声卡啊.
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 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-12 16:48:54 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 小白 于 2007-11-12 15:38 发表
普通版 ... 如连接电脑使用,前面要有声卡啊.




我本来就有声卡的,呵呵,火线的
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优秀版主奖耳机鉴赏奖社区建设奖

发表于 2007-11-12 16:50:14 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 缥姚校尉 于 2007-11-12 16:48 发表




我本来就有声卡的,呵呵,火线的



你这个情况,当然适合用普通版MINI-DAC.
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发表于 2007-11-12 17:39:31 | 显示全部楼层
现今usb dac的声音还受usb jitter影响吗? 不是都不参考usb时钟吗?
Melco N1=>Man301=》Lavry DAN5=》M902=》JR M125=>>Harbeth m30.2
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